the smearing of average citizens
August 10, 2009
tea baggers. right-wing extremists. racists. home-grown terrorists. angry mob. terrorist tactics. brown shirts. nazis. and now un-american. why? for speaking out.
they really aren’t use to us standing up to them. according to the lemmings who run our country, any criticism of obamacare is not only illegitimate but now its even un-american. and surely everyone who turns out against obamacare must be part of a racist 2.0 vast right wing conspiracy against The iOne!
but the reality is they have nothing left to say or do for the american people when they resort to personal attacks. who can forget these? they have nothing. they simply want to silence you.
don’t let them intimidate you. show up and speak out.
_____
btw: my townhall meeting is today at 5-6 pm pacific time, conducted at the local police station in a room that will hold only about 75 people. i have my questions prepared but of course i live in a socialist state so i suspect they aren’t expecting much opposition from constituents. i’ll let you know!
Posted in barack obama, bloated spending, conservatives, hopechangery, liberals, moonbats, resistance, thugs
'a wise man's heart directs him toward the right but a foolish man's heart directs him toward the left'
ecclesiastes 10:2
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August 10th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
“tea baggers. right-wing extremists. racists. home-grown terrorists. angry mob. terrorist tactics. brown shirts. nazis. and now un-american. why?”
Yea so? Truth hurts.
August 10th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Will we see you making a fool of yourself on You Tube? Screaming and threatening your congressman? Embarrassing your family? Just wondering outloud here.
August 10th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
A couple points:
Right-wingers, of course, have thrown all kinds of bigoted labels at people who protested the war in Iraq, people who demanded (and continue to demand) that the Bush administration be held accountable for torture and Constitutional abuses, people who despise Bush. So, no sense in complaining about the name-calling, eh?
I’m going to write a blog post about this tomorrow, but I do believe that, at the core, there is an element of …something unseemly …in these Town Hall “protests.” The people at these town halls that make all the noise aren’t so angry about the health care proposal. At least, I don’t believe that’s what they’re angry about. I think what they are really angry about is that they lost the election; that they are politically exiled; that they are no longer dominant politically.
There are genuine, legitimate concerns about health care reform. But those concerns aren’t being aired or debated. Instead, we have Sarah Palin talking about “Obama Death Panels,” and utterly false claims that reform will mean euthanization of seniors.
There is no political discourse in this country at the moment. It’s all partisan shrieking back and forth. I don’t know if we’ll ever return to anything that looks like civility.
Well, if it’s going to be mob rule, choose your mob and let’s get it on.
August 10th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Liberals protest when they cant have freebees that cost everyone but them.
Conservatives protest when the freebees are shoved down our throats and we have to pay for them at the same time.
“There are genuine, legitimate concerns about health care reform. But those concerns aren’t being aired or debated. Instead, we have Sarah Palin talking about “Obama Death Panels,” and utterly false claims that reform will mean euthanization of seniors. ”
Really ?
Thats it, just pick out one or two instances, blow the context of those few instances out of proportion and then say that legitimate concerns arent being debated. Right.
They’re being debated. The problem is the right forum for the right debate is not being allowed often enough. Instead what were seeing are these democratic run sales presentations where were supposed to just sit, be sold, gobble it up like idiots.
You may think Palins statements reflect some extreme by labeling “death panels” as some sort of “euthanasia panel” is pretty slick but the fact of the matter is we heard from Obamas own mouth that instead of the cure for an elderly being issued they should settle for some pain relief and just go away.
I’ll tell you what Dade, when we see all of congress and those on the hill settle for the same plan they’re trying to ram down our throats then I’ll take you seriously.
When you can explain how the public sector wont squeeze the private sector out of business then I’ll take you seriously.
When its explained in a clear concise manner how all this will be paid for at the ame time as everything else, then I’ll take you seriously.
When you can guarantee that my doctor and not the fed will determine the level of care I get, I’ll take you seriously. When you can explain why they dont just give a plan to those 47 million that dont have a plan and leave the rest of us the hell alone, I’ll take you seriously.
When you can explain why I should…
1) Pay taxes on my benefits.
2) Pay taxes for your benefits
3 Pay for my private plan at the same time as all above… I’ll take you seriously
August 10th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
[...] See the original post: the smearing of average citizens [...]
August 10th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Dade - can I have some of what you are smoking/drinking/swallowing?
These people are focused on healthcare questions at these town hall meetings. They ask their questions and what happens? They are yelled at and attacked.
Our Thug-in-Chief at work.
Because people like you can’t believe that really, maybe someone opposes Obama because we educate ourselves rather than following like sheep. Because we want to know how our elected officials can vote for something they haven’t read and don’t understand.
Because Obama said to, that’s why.
Sheeple, we are in the hands of sheeple. Our only choice is to speak out - is it just the province of the left? To protest what we don’t agree with? Many of you people have made careers out of the disruptive protest. Why is it just for you?
Last time I looked, there is something out there that was so important to our Founding Fathers that they made it the First Amendment - the first thing on the list of the Bill of Rights - freedom of speech.
It would behoove those of you calling these protestors un-American Nazi devil-worshippers - to remember just why our Founding Fathers put that in as the very first right to be guaranteed to Americans in the Constitution.
August 10th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Ok we Democrats give up. Y’all win. Your activism by old people and cripple people at the townhalls and your powerful you tubes have convinced us to step back on Obama Care. We will remove the points that state we will kill your grandmothers and will not provide services to Trig Palin types. Jeebus! Listen to yourselves people! It’s insane! You are becoming embarrassing.
August 10th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
What???? No Palin post???? I am so disappointed! Here, I will create my own:
“The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s ‘death panel’” Sarah Palin
Death Panel? Nice scare tactic Sarah. Thought you weren’t into that? Guess you lied about the bill just like all of your fellow Republicans are doing. Who votes for Trig to be the first one in front of Obama’s death panel???? Thought not. Sarah Liar Palin. OH SO SCARY that I’m p*ssing my pants!
August 10th, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Jared
Palin is going to be a lot of fun to watch now because she doesn’t have the restraint of an elected office putting a clamp on that trap of hers. Unbelievable! Get the popcorn and prop your feet up!
August 10th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
There is no smearing here. Just a bunch of manufactured outrage by the right wing who wants desperately to have their power back. Sorry! You blew it and we have no intention of blowing it. Now go sit in the corner.
August 10th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
You Republicans just have to have a boogey man under your bed don’t you? If it’s not Communism it’s Sadaam. If it’s not Sadaam because you had him killed. It’s “terrorists”. If it’s not terrorists its Barack Obama and healthcare reform. You guys are a real scream. Literally.
August 10th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
Jared.
Maybe you’d care to enlighten us as to what it is thats being lied about.
So, Palin decide all on her own to call them death panels. Well, its about right since as I mentioned above your own messiah said; “I don’t think that we can make judgments based on peoples’ spirit,” Obama said. … “Maybe you’re better off not having the surgery, but taking painkillers.“
In other words… you’re not gonna be around too much longer so why spend the money ? Its not a question of whetehr your spirit says you should stick around, its a question of whether or not the pain kilers would keep you comfortable intil the inevitable.
Tell me jared. Would you rather have the surgery if you thought you had a chance and wanted it, or the pain meds ?
My father was offerd a “no resucitation clause’ when he got sick. The choice was his, no one elses. If it were anyone elses they fittingly could be called part of a “death panel”
August 10th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
some of you on the right shouldn’t believe everything you think. it’s dangerous!
August 10th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
“The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s ‘death panel’” Sarah Palin
LOL Jared! Hey maybe if we made some concessions such as taking out the “kill granny and trig” amendment, maybe the right-wingers would go for it! Now watch them all go ballistic…
August 10th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Nice how all of you have no other course but to come after our reasoning instead of the facts behind the reasoning.
Theres little debate about what the bill entails as far as the future of our health care goes. maybe you’d care to direct your skepticism against the liberals at these meetings who feel the same way. Or answer some of the quaestion these people presented at these meetings instead of being chickens and just dismissing them as paranoid ? Or even answer some of the questions I posed to Dade ?
Boogey man Jesse ? You mean like the big bad global warming monster thats going to kill us all any day now ?
Oxymoron of the century;
” Obama Care”
August 10th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
GYpsy;
“You blew it and we have no intention of blowing it.”
We all know that liberals are nothing but intentions
August 10th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
Great post! Keep up the excellent work!
COMMON CENTS
http://www.commoncts.blogspot.com
ps. Link Exchange?
August 10th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Micky that little quip of yours about Obamacare being an Oxymoron did not originate with you. Tell us who you lifted it from…
August 10th, 2009 at 7:42 pm
The thugs are coming from the Chicago machine. Now that they have a taste of ultimate power, they like it too much to let a bunch of old people and sick kids take it all away.
August 10th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Alright Micky, let’s talk about it then…
Your first couple of paragraphs are assertions.
You said:
You may think Palins statements reflect some extreme by labeling “death panels” as some sort of “euthanasia panel” is pretty slick but the fact of the matter is we heard from Obamas own mouth that instead of the cure for an elderly being issued they should settle for some pain relief and just go away.
Alright, so you are saying that you believe that health care reform will lead to some kind of rationing or care for elderly people. Is that it?
Well, the idea of rationing is out there and it is an uncomfortable difficult issue. I don’t know, or even pretend to know the correct course of action when, say, a 93-year-old is diagnosed with a kidney disease that can only be cured with very expensive treatments. I think those decisions are best left to the family.
But the point is this, rationing is already being practiced by private insurance companies. They deny claims all the time based on the cost of treatments. Think about it: smaller payouts mean more profits! It’s capitalism. That’s the function of a corporation.
With a government-run health care system, modeled on the current successful and popular Medicare, the profit motive is removed. No one gets rich in government by denying claims.
You said:
I’ll tell you what Dade, when we see all of congress and those on the hill settle for the same plan they’re trying to ram down our throats then I’ll take you seriously.
I agree. I want the same plan that senators, congressmen, federal judges, and administration workers get. Guess what? It’s a government run plan. A single-payer plan. That’s what I want!
You said:
When you can explain how the public sector wont squeeze the private sector out of business then I’ll take you seriously.
Why should a capitalist worry about the private sector? Laissez-faire capitalism is all about competition. If private insurance companies really are more efficient and provide better service than a government plan would provide, people will be willing to pay for their services, yes?
I shell out hundreds of dollars every month to my health care provider. Personally, I’d rather pay that same amount in taxes for a single payer plan run by the fed.
You said:
When its explained in a clear concise manner how all this will be paid for at the ame time as everything else, then I’ll take you seriously.
That’s a tough one. Personally, I’d be willing to pay more in taxes, but I know I’m in a very small minority on that score. We’ll have to figure out a way to pay for it, and that’s what Congress is working on right now. That’s why there wasn’t a bill to talk about before the recess.
(But, of course, your sudden concern for fiscal responsibility rings a little hollow when we make note that few conservatives complained about paying for the Iraq War, which has cost $3 trillion over 8 years. And Bush kept all of it off the books, paying with supplemental funding that was all borrowed directly from Chinese banks. )
You said:
When you can guarantee that my doctor and not the fed will determine the level of care I get, I’ll take you seriously. When you can explain why they dont just give a plan to those 47 million that dont have a plan and leave the rest of us the hell alone, I’ll take you seriously.
Well, Micky, guess what? Right now there is another entity that determines the level of care you get: your private insurer. Doctors send requests for diagnostic tests that are denied all the time. And, as I stated above, insurance companies want to minimize their payouts.
You said:
When you can explain why I should…
1) Pay taxes on my benefits.
This is one option being considered. Some in Congress are dead set against this. But a bipartisan group of senators, consisting of Ron Wyden (D-OR), Ben Nelson (D-NE), Olympia Snowe (R-ME) and Susan Collins (R-ME) are supporting it. (There may be others, too.)
2) Pay taxes for your benefits
You can pay taxes for my benefits, or you can pay for much more expensive emergency room visits when I get sick and have nowhere else to go. Or are you saying we should just let uninsured people die without treatment?
3 Pay for my private plan at the same time as all above… I’ll take you seriously
I don’t know how to answer this. But I’ll tell you this: for all this “love of country” crap conservatives spout, they sure don’t like to sacrifice when times get tough. They’re all about sending people to war, but they sure as hell don’t want to have to pay for anything.
August 10th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
Kris from New England says:
Dade - can I have some of what you are smoking/drinking/swallowing?
Childish.
These people are focused on healthcare questions at these town hall meetings. They ask their questions and what happens? They are yelled at and attacked.
I haven’t been to any town hall meetings myself, so anything I know is anectdotal. I’m willing to be that both sides of the issue are guilty of being disruptive. There’s a lot of anger out there.
Because people like you can’t believe that really, maybe someone opposes Obama because we educate ourselves rather than following like sheep. Because we want to know how our elected officials can vote for something they haven’t read and don’t understand.
I don’t know how you can speak with any conviction about what I believe regarding President Obama. You say you educate yourself. So, why don’t you do that? Why don’t you try to understand the other side?
It’s easier just to call names and act indignant… is that it?
You said:
Because Obama said to, that’s why.
Sheeple, we are in the hands of sheeple. Our only choice is to speak out - is it just the province of the left? To protest what we don’t agree with? Many of you people have made careers out of the disruptive protest. Why is it just for you?
Yes, I’ve been wrestling with this myself. I don’t want to deny anyone the right to protest, to try to be heard. I was one of the millions out in the street trying to stop Junior from pulling the trigger in Iraq.
Last time I looked, there is something out there that was so important to our Founding Fathers that they made it the First Amendment - the first thing on the list of the Bill of Rights - freedom of speech.
Not much of a poetical flourish. But keep trying. That’s how you get better.
It would behoove those of you calling these protestors un-American Nazi devil-worshippers - to remember just why our Founding Fathers put that in as the very first right to be guaranteed to Americans in the Constitution.
I haven’t called anyone a Nazi.
August 10th, 2009 at 10:38 pm
“Alright, so you are saying that you believe that health care reform will lead to some kind of rationing or care for elderly people. Is that it?”
Why not ? I find it absurd that anyone cant believe that when its common knowledge that the private sector rations depending on cost, availability and clients disposition/type of plan. Right ?
The only difference is that I have more control with the private sector. I can pay into it more if I want, I can challenge them legally.
I cant do that with Obamacare, can I ?
“With a government-run health care system, modeled on the current successful and popular Medicare, the profit motive is removed. No one gets rich in government by denying claims.”
Exactly.
The private sector is inspired by profits to do research, be cutting edge, compete for top plans with more to offer.
The public sector has no motivation to do any such thing when there’s no threat.
When a certain company can offer what no other offers it motivates the others to step up to the plate. ya know, that good ole thing called American ingenuity that has made our capitalistic market the most formidable and technologically advanced on the planet ?
While were at it. Tell me of one thing the public sector has ever done better than the private, besides the military ?
“I agree. I want the same plan that senators, congressmen, federal judges, and administration workers get. Guess what? It’s a government run plan. A single-payer plan. That’s what I want!”
Nice try, but that was not what I presented. Its not what I asked
I presented question asking as such. Why cant the guys on the hill settle for what we are being asked to take. Not should we have what they’ve got as you tried to obfuscate to.
Will they eat what they serve us ?
The private sector will get squeezed out.
Cash for clunkers as the perfect example.
When people see a free bee, they take it.
Enough people perceive the public plan to be a free bee, especially those who’s taxes will not go up. You think they’re not going to take it ? You don’t think the private sector will have a hard time competing with an entity that supposedly has a limitless budget ?
If the post office generated its funding from taxes instead of postage fees I’ll bet tons of people would use it and Fedex, UPS would crash, no doubt.
I’d rather my insurance companies and doc make the decisions as opposed to politicians. Ever try suing the fed ? You have better angles and choices with the private sector. Some may not be so pretty, but they are choices that the fed would never offer. If I’m correct, its almost impossible to sue the fed for dereliction to citizen. At least if the private companies are wrong they can be held accountable, legally, in some fashion.
“You can pay taxes for my benefits, or you can pay for much more expensive emergency room visits when I get sick and have nowhere else to go. Or are you saying we should just let uninsured people die without treatment?”
Not at all.
Obama should spend the rest of that stimulus money to increase the employment rates, launch probes to end frivolous lawsuits against private practitioners,
ya know, get everyone jobs so they can afford private insurance after we reform that whole mess.
We don’t need health care reform by way of a huge government operation. We need to fix the one in place and get folks employed so they can afford their own and try to stimulate co ops and group plans that span among more than one company. It would take a lot less money and leave a system in place with people who have decades of experience running this type of business.
We have SCHIP/CHIP, Medicaid, medicare, Cobra. That’s needs to be fixed also before we start another government health care operation that if is designed anything like those there are at the time is destined to fail.
Look Dade, anyone with any projective logic can see that all Obama wants to do is get as many people dependent on the government teet as possible so as to garner more votes for 2012.
————————
Jane.
Right on topic as usual huh ?
Yea, it was all mine, but it wasn’t that hard to come up with which is probably why you’ve heard it elsewhere.
Anything else intelligent you’d like to bring to the table ?
August 10th, 2009 at 10:43 pm
Micky you are such a liar! All one has to do is Google the phrase and it’s everywhere on the internet. Pathetic, needy, lying simpleton.
August 10th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
Why not ? I find it absurd that anyone cant believe that when its common knowledge that the private sector rations depending on cost, availability and clients disposition/type of plan. Right ?
Absolutely! Rationing is real. It’s unavoidable. As in the theoretical case I cited in my first post, these are difficult decisions. The only difference is whether or not rationing is imposed by government or by private industry.
The only difference is that I have more control with the private sector. I can pay into it more if I want, I can challenge them legally.
I cant do that with Obamacare, can I ?
I don’t know what legal options will be presented to people who participate in a public option. Neither do you. But I do know that people go bankrupt all the time trying to challenge health insurance providers claim denials. Generally, the providers are in much better position to afford legal bills than is a private citizen. You can challenge private insurers in theory. But in practice you’ve got no chance. They can afford real lawyers.
“With a government-run health care system, modeled on the current successful and popular Medicare, the profit motive is removed. No one gets rich in government by denying claims.”
Exactly.
So, why should someone get rich for administering a health plan? It comes down to whether you believe health care is a right or a privilege.
The private sector is inspired by profits to do research, be cutting edge, compete for top plans with more to offer.
Of course, this sounds good, but the reality is that most research, especially with pharmaceuticals, is publicly subsidized. Tax payers pay for the research; private corporations reap the windfall profits from new discoveries.
The public sector has no motivation to do any such thing when there’s no threat.
When a certain company can offer what no other offers it motivates the others to step up to the plate. ya know, that good ole thing called American ingenuity that has made our capitalistic market the most formidable and technologically advanced on the planet ?
A couple of problems with your statement. Firstly, your faith in the ethical behavior of companies to compete fairly is naive at best. Especially given the rash of exposed corporate scandals since the Bush era. (Enron, Bernie Madoff, etcetera). Secondly, this “capitalistic market” as we have learned to our chagrin over the past year, was not really formidable. It was all a big ponzi scheme perpetrated by Goldman Sachs and others.
While were at it. Tell me of one thing the public sector has ever done better than the private, besides the military ?
Postal service.
Nice try, but that was not what I presented. Its not what I asked
I presented question asking as such. Why cant the guys on the hill settle for what we are being asked to take. Not should we have what they’ve got as you tried to obfuscate to.
Will they eat what they serve us ?
I want what they’re eating.
The private sector will get squeezed out.
Cash for clunkers as the perfect example.
When people see a free bee, they take it.
How is cash for clunkers squeezing anybody out?
Enough people perceive the public plan to be a free bee, especially those who’s taxes will not go up. You think they’re not going to take it ? You don’t think the private sector will have a hard time competing with an entity that supposedly has a limitless budget ?
Capitalism, baby. You can’t compete, you die. Simple as that.
If the post office generated its funding from taxes instead of postage fees I’ll bet tons of people would use it and Fedex, UPS would crash, no doubt.
Bad analogy. People don’t live and die because of the postal service.
I’d rather my insurance companies and doc make the decisions as opposed to politicians. Ever try suing the fed ? You have better angles and choices with the private sector. Some may not be so pretty, but they are choices that the fed would never offer. If I’m correct, its almost impossible to sue the fed for dereliction to citizen. At least if the private companies are wrong they can be held accountable, legally, in some fashion.
Politicians, of course, would not make the decisions. But government workers would. Whether the bureaucrat works for the government or private industry doesn’t strike me as relevant. But I resent people getting filthy rich by denying others health care. And that’s what you have with private insurers.
Not at all.
Obama should spend the rest of that stimulus money to increase the employment rates, launch probes to end frivolous lawsuits against private practitioners,
ya know, get everyone jobs so they can afford private insurance after we reform that whole mess.
We don’t need health care reform by way of a huge government operation. We need to fix the one in place and get folks employed so they can afford their own and try to stimulate co ops and group plans that span among more than one company. It would take a lot less money and leave a system in place with people who have decades of experience running this type of business.
Well, the Obama administration argues that reforming health care will help the employment rate, because by containing health care costs, more small businesses will be able to hire more workers due to the savings.
We have SCHIP/CHIP, Medicaid, medicare, Cobra. That’s needs to be fixed also before we start another government health care operation that if is designed anything like those there are at the time is destined to fail.
We’re in a fix, for sure. It’s just a matter of figuring out what to do about it.
Look Dade, anyone with any projective logic can see that all Obama wants to do is get as many people dependent on the government teet as possible so as to garner more votes for 2012.
Doesn’t make sense to me. But, using that logic, one could argue that Junior invaded Iraq for the same reason. In fact, I probably have argued that once or twice.
Well, if people at the town halls could have a debate like this one instead of shouting each other down, we’d all be better off.
August 11th, 2009 at 6:25 am
“Micky you are such a liar! All one has to do is Google the phrase and it’s everywhere on the internet. Pathetic, needy, lying simpleton.”
Pennie.
You and Jane can try to bug me on all you want by focusing on pedantic irrelevant issues. The bottom line is that you both suck ay doing anything else but that.
No one lied. I said yes I came up with it all on my own but its no harder to come with than anthing else out there. It really comes to mind very easley no matter who coined the phrase. Really, do you think its all that difficult for me to ask myself if Obama really does care ? Do you think its that hard for any intelligent person to see that he only gives a rats a$$ about votes and power ?
Find something else to worry about. Like maybe that one dimensional thought pattern of yours. I doubt theres anything in you messiahs plan that can help you with that if it doesnt make it worse.
August 11th, 2009 at 7:54 am
Dade;
“I don’t know what legal options will be presented to people who participate in a public option. Neither do you. But I do know that people go bankrupt all the time trying to challenge health insurance providers claim denials. Generally, the providers are in much better position to afford legal bills than is a private citizen. You can challenge private insurers in theory. But in practice you’ve got no chance. They can afford real lawyers.
“With a government-run health care system, modeled on the current successful and popular Medicare, the profit motive is removed. No one gets rich in government by denying claims.”
Dade, have you ever tried to retrieve something from the fed ? Ever try to sue them or go through with a claim against them. people take HMOs and insurance companies to court all the time. These companies also at least offer a variety of plans that commensurate with what you pay into them. I don’t believe HR 3200 offers us these choices.
here’s another interesting thing I came across..
( Part of the bill)
“will require all people enrolled in Medicare to have a counseling session with an Advance Care Planning Consultant every five years. The bill will amend Section 1861 of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395x) to include Advanced Care Planning (see pp. 425-430 of HR 3200).
Of course, the Democratic proponents of this bill have been quick point out that there is no “mandatory” language in this deliberately vague bill, but when Republicans in Congress asked for the addition of the word “voluntary” to be added, the Democratic majority refused. One can only make the assumption that the Democrats would like a “mandatory” option “just in case” one day it is needed. Thus, Americans are right to be concerned and are right to make the assumption that eventually Advance Care Planning will become mandatory. This will most likely come about after the bill has passed into law and rules and regulations are implemented.”
That’s right Dade, your advanced care or “end of life care” will be a mandatory exercise, part of the status quo involving determination of viability in relation to benefits.
The author of that piece goes on to write;
“Unfortunately, when anything becomes mandatory that, by definition, implies that someone else will have a higher level of authority over our individual plans. “Mandatory” also implies that failure to comply will result in some penalty, or loss of benefit.
Today, much of the research into Advanced Care Planning is being conducted by the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHRQ), which is part of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.
The AHRQ points out that the right to accept or refuse treatment is guaranteed by the Patient Self-Determination Act, which “guarantees patients the right to accept or refuse treatment and to complete advance medical directives.2-12 However, despite patients’ rights to determine their future care, AHRQ research reveals that:”
AHRQ research shows that care at the end of life sometimes appears to be inconsistent with the patients’ preferences to forgo life-sustaining treatment and patients may receive care they do not want.5 For example, one study found that patient preferences to decline cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) were not translated into do-not-resuscitate (DNR) orders.5,6,11 DNR orders are requests from the patient or the patient’s surrogate to the physician that certain forms of treatment or diagnostic testing not be performed.18 CPR is a procedure frequently addressed in DNR orders. Another study found that patients received life-sustaining treatment at the same rate regardless of their desire to limit treatment.18
There is no doubt that the Patient Self-Determination Act (PSDA), which became law in 1991, has been a dismal failure when it comes to insuring that a patient’s last wishes are followed. No doubt this is why Advanced Care Planning has been made a part of the current bill in Congress.
Unfortunately, the Patient Self-Determination Act is a one-way law that was designed at a time when our Nation’s greatest fears had to do with an abundance of medical interventions that might be employed to prolong life against our personal wishes. Today, the strong possibility of eventual health care rationing leaves seniors with little protection when it comes to the desire to obtain medical or surgical treatment that might be denied due to advanced age or other conditions. This bill does allow for an order regarding life sustaining treatment, but that would most likely be subject to other conditions and myriad rules and regulations that have yet to be written.”
Sorry about the lengthy deposit there but I believe it clears things up as well as can be, on that subject at least.
I’ll try to elaborate on what I said earlier.
I would rather be a customer of an institution that is motivated by profit. The are numerous ways for that company to receive that profit.
Cost effectiveness, this is something any management worth its salt would focus on so as to be able to make there’s and my buck more effective. Do you believe the fed has that motivation when there’s no incentive driven by profit ?
A record of customer satisfaction.
)
I can shop around among many different providers to see who has the best record of paying claims, the better options, pricing etc… (mortality rate
Do we have that option with the fed ?
Its like when I shop for anything Dade. I want choices that are put together by those who have a motivation to strive for perfection be it profit or quality which are usually very much tied together.
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Dade;
“Of course, this sounds good, but the reality is that most research, especially with pharmaceuticals, is publicly subsidized. Tax payers pay for the research; private corporations reap the windfall profits from new discoveries.”
Regardless of the subsidies and where they come from they are still profit motivated which I think is far better than any political or politically bias motivation.
Wouldn’t you agree ?
Once public money comes into the picture these guys still have to answer to someone but they are still driven by the net income which would cause them to deliver a better product quicker no doubt.
You have to admit, when you want something done right do you go to Fedex, UPS or he post office ?
———————————————————————————————–
Dade;
“A couple of problems with your statement. Firstly, your faith in the ethical behavior of companies to compete fairly is naive at best. Especially given the rash of exposed corporate scandals since the Bush era. (Enron, Bernie Madoff, etcetera). Secondly, this “capitalistic market” as we have learned to our chagrin over the past year, was not really formidable. It was all a big ponzi scheme perpetrated by Goldman Sachs and others.”
Excuse me if I have little to no faith in the ethics of politicians who are driven by power and monetary gain of their own. Profits that never reinvested in the company. Seeing as how they are in the business of power for political sake and not industrial, commercial or corporate power I tend to put my faith in those companies that are always trying to make the best mouse trap instead of being told to take a pain killer and live with the rats you have.
Since the Bush era ? Gimme a break please, that crap goes as far back as anyone can remember. What about the S&L crisis that took place partially on Clintons watch that contributed to our housing meltdown ? There’s so many examples of that behavior on both sides its not even funny so lets not go there, shall we ?
Its not all a big “ponzi scheme” but it will be if we let the fed starts running everything from our banks to our medical care. It will all be dependent on the future buck, our kids taxes, wont it ???? That is the definition of the Ponzi scheme, isn’t it ? The new investors pay off the old, and so on til it busts. Much like out SS, medicaid and medicare, which by no coincidence are broke.
————————————————————————————————
The Postal service is a perfect example. Remember how the phrase “going postal” was coined ? Yeah.
I’d like to have the option as we do to go with something that costs just a little bit more but functions at much higher level of efficiency.
You may say its a good example of how the public sector will not squeeze out the private but you have to keep in mind the difference in cost and why those companies such as FEDEX and UPS are able to still stay afloat.
There is no doubt that the private sector would indeed have to raise its premiums due to the drop in volume. The problem is that the US Postal service does not offer the illusion of being free. there are many recipients of the public plan that would view it as just that. And company no matter how good can compete with that.
As I mentioned earlier using cash for clunkers as my example.
Would you use FEDEX if you had the premise that you could mail anything as much as you want all the time for one flat rate or nothing at all by going with the public ?
Yes Dade, the public plan will be highly subjected to abuse, thereby waste.
————————————————————————————————
Dade;
“I want what they’re eating.”
The problem is that they are offering you Hamburger Helper which is not on their menu.
Will they order off of your menu is the question.
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Dade;
“How is cash for clunkers squeezing anybody out?”
Instead of going to the bank to borrow what I need I got it from you bub !
The Cash for clunkers plan also comes with a long list of does and don’ts as to what kind of car you can buy.
Obamacare is perceived to be a freebee, and it most definitely will be for at least 46 million people, if not more.
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Dade;
“Capitalism, baby. You can’t compete, you die. Simple as that.”
The sad thing is Dade that Obama care is not a capitalistic venture and functions in a class all its own that’s perceived as having and endless pit of revenue/funding. No capitalistic based corporation can compete with that.
It supposedly cant go broke. Though I believe it will, and will drag the whole country down with it.
————————————————————————————————
Dade;
“Bad analogy. People don’t live and die because of the postal service.”
Not at all, the cost effectiveness theory still applies regardless if its a lemonade stand or a hospital.
Delivery services are not life sustaining services but if they were perceived to be of none or little cost to the user it will simply get used more often.
People are greedy.
————————————————————————————————
” But I resent people getting filthy rich by denying others health care. And that’s what you have with private insurers.”
I want my professionals to be motivated by that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and not a government pension.
They also get “filthy rich” making customers happy.
I buy my insurance because I know what they’re up to. I have no illusions as to their motives.
Like I said, I would rather have my care motivated by someone who strives for a profit rather than public office. The bottom line is that whether or not that fed employee gets his pension or not if the plan works for enough people that candidate behind it will get the votes.
———————————————————————————————-
Dade;
“Well, the Obama administration argues that reforming health care will help the employment rate, because by containing health care costs, more small businesses will be able to hire more workers due to the savings.”
Yeah, they can argue all they want but since when has the fed ever been able to pull that one off in any other field ?
What about all those in the private sector that will lose their jobs ? Go to work for the fed with no profit as a motivator ? For a smaller paycheck that includes free health care ?
That’s a conundrum/paradox that’s detailed in presenting. Maybe even a red herring.
Once those people have jobs and we have a reformed private sector I argue that would be a hell of a lot easier to do.
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Dade;
“We’re in a fix, for sure. It’s just a matter of figuring out what to do about it.
Adding another failed government program to the mix I hardly think will help.
————————————————————————————————
“Doesn’t make sense to me. But, using that logic, one could argue that Junior invaded Iraq for the same reason. In fact, I probably have argued that once or twice.”
He wasn’t up for re election in 2007-8 yet he still maintained the cause and even bolstered it.
Obama on the other hand made it the center of his campaign and does stand to gain another term.
“Well, if people at the town halls could have a debate like this one instead of shouting each other down, we’d all be better off.”
Works both ways at any public forum
August 11th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
It seems to me that though the original townhall meetings were spontaneous, they have become organized on both sides. I do think that there is a lot of anger out there. I think also that citizens who are conservatives for the first time feel like they can voice their opinions and that people are noticing.
The people in the townhalls are not mobsters or revolutionaries or even troublemakers. They are just scared Americans who see what they use to know and take for granted slipping away from them thanks to Obama.
August 11th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
The GOP is so desperate to sabotage the success of an Obama presidency that they are willing to make fools of themselves across the country in these townhall meetings. It’s ridiculous. Obama has the votes people do you get that? If he needs to twist arms with the Blue Dogs, he can do that easily. If he wants Healthcare reform, he has it. I stand with our President 200%.
August 11th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
I was raised in a home of Democrats but I have been a registered Independent for 15 years.
I voted for Bill Clinton twice and then for George W. Bush twice because I felt Al Gore and John Kerry substandard and basically, self-serving idiots.
I voted for Barack Obama because I had had enough of Iraq and war in general. I am not some uninformed college kid or some “Obamabot” talked about a lot here at this site. I consider myself informed and engaged politically. I wanted the military home and Guantanamo Bay closed.
I want to say that I expected so much from President Obama. At the risk of being mocked here, I really did feel hopeful for change. I was excited about a candidate. But I am just so disappointed on what I have seen on a day-to-day basis from this administration. It gets worse every day. I am ashamed of my vote.
I do not think the Republicans have anything better to offer. I see them as trying to exploit the failure of President Obama. Our country deserves better service then we are getting from any of them.
Now, mock away.
August 11th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Yeah Bruce. What success ?
Americans voicing their concerns are only fools when they’re conservatives, right ?
Just because he won the election does not mean he has the votes on this issue, I hope you understand that majority of the country doesnt want this plan. Thats why he got up in front of everyone today and did his best to try and BS us some more.
If he had the votes then why all the townhall meetings, his meeting today ?
Seems pretty desperate for someone who supposedly has all these votes you speak of.
200% ? What are you ? Conjoined twins ?
Andy.
No mocking here. But I’m always suspicious of anyone from either side who claims disappointment. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and simply say that its not hard for anyone from either side to notice the broken promises, the “change” no one counted on, the flips. I too would be very disappointed if I were you.
Too bad theres not more of you that are willing to hold this guys feet to the fire.
I know I would once he started adopting almost all of Bushs security policies, hints of taxing brackets he said he’d never touch etc…
Hopefully the entrenched Obamabots who blindly idolize this idiot have a conscience that will finally one day bring out some integrity in them such as is the case with you.
I’m not holding my breath
August 11th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Bruce if you don’t care to be informed so be it. If you chose to have this healthcare simply because the one tells you it’s whats best for you then so be it. If you want a healthcare bill passed that so far noone has read in its entirety, including our president then so be it. And if you don’t care how this passes even twisting the arms of blue dog dems, then you my friend are the head koolaid drinker. As for me, I’ve been to 2 of these well organized well informed townhall meetings. At both the crowd seemed to be devided evenly between reps and dems. The questions were well thought out and the answers informative. Funny when the townhall meetings crucifided W you were all practicing your rights as americans, but let someone question the one and all of a sudden we are unamerican and sabotaging his presidency. How truely pathetic the double standards are.
August 11th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
Dade - normally it would be a waste of my time to answer your comments directed towards me. But I’m feeling a bit snarky tonite, so I’ll happily waste my time.
You accuse me of being childish. I thought I was being funny. YMMV.
You say you educate yourself. So, why don’t you do that? Why don’t you try to understand the other side?
It’s easier just to call names and act indignant… is that it?
You accuse me of being uneducated for not agreeing with you. Yet in that same sentence you contradict yourself by showing that you aren’t willing to see the other side of your argument. Agree to disagree on this point - and so many more.
And where have I ever called anyone “names” (OK, I’ll cop to Thug-in-Chief). I don’t resort to that kind of childish behavior. In fact, I commented a while ago that the insults are counter-productive to the debates that could result from this blog. If you are referencing my use of the word sheeple - give me a break. It’s an old term applied to people who follow a leader without thinking for themselves.
And I stand by it. The shoe fits.
Not much of a poetical flourish.
I’ll quote you back to you - childish.
I never said that you called anyone a Nazi. Since you seem so intent on dissecting this comment of mine - for whatever reason - please notice that I said “those of you…”. If you felt that was directed at you - I’d say it may be because it cut close to home for you. Because I imagine you’ve called former President Bush that - or worse.
August 11th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Though I never agree with Kris. Ever. I will say she doesn’t resort to the viscious namecalling by others on this blog like Micky, Dan, and Ken the Cop.
August 11th, 2009 at 5:25 pm
It’s so amusing watching our resident neo-socialists claim that there is some complex right wing conspiracy that is organizing the protesters. Of course, none of them can provide a shred of proof that this is true, but that’s nothing new with them. I guess its easier to call people names then actually read about someone who doesn’t actually agree with you. You guys are turning senior citizens into villains and you say WE’RE using scare tactics. Pathetic.
I’m glad Rope brought up the fact that dems have admitted that they haven’t even READ the bill. This may be the most incredible of stupid acts I’ve ever seen in American politics. The dems are out trying to sell a bill that they haven’t even read. Absolutely unreal. One dem even said that if people actually read the bill, they wouldn’t be in favor of it.
Name calling? The left are the masters of it, mainly because they can’t argue a point. I have no doubt that conservatives had plenty of names for liberals during the Bush years, yet I cannot think of any elected Republicans who referred to them as Nazis, or KKK members, or comparing them to mass murderers like Timothy Mcveigh. Elected democrats have. They are such pigs. I also don’t recall the media referring to the liberal protesters in crude sexual terms. Comparing the two are apples and oranges.
Andy, you have guts to admit the reasons you voted for B.O., what you expected, and how you have been disappointed. Many people voted for him for the same thing and many people are waking up as well.
Health care? Hey lefties, please stop saying that the MAJORITY support Obamacare, because they don’t. Every passing week sees more and more support for his disastrous plan slip away. Along with Obama’s approval ratings.
August 11th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Pennie, you accusing ANYBODY of cheap shots and name calling is the funniest thing ever!!! Thanks for the laugh, keep it up!!!
August 11th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
“While were at it. Tell me of one thing the public sector has ever done better than the private, besides the military ?
Postal service.”
Hmmmmm, it appears Obama doesn’t agree with you:
“U.P.S. and FedEx are doing just fine,” Mr. Obama joked. “It’s the post office that’s always having problems.”
August 11th, 2009 at 6:05 pm
I always wondered if that 44 cents is all it really took to get that letter there. Or is the post office subsidized somehow ?
So I looked and I found this.
” the USPS is subsidized. One need only refer to the 2005 annual report to get some illustrative numbers. A line item showing as “U.S. government appropriations — received” lists an amount of $503 million. The 2003 annual report shows a similar line item with a similar heading. That line item lists an amount of $762 million. Call me a nitpicker, but those listings both sound suspiciously like, well, government appropriations, A.K.A. taxpayer investment, to me. Looking further into the 2005 annual report we find this.
“We commenced operations on July 1, 1971, in accordance with the provisions of the Postal Reorganization Act (the Act). The equity that the U.S. government held in the former Post Office Department became our initial capital. We valued the assets of the former Post Office Department at original cost less accumulated depreciation. The initial transfer of assets, including property, equipment and cash, totaled $1.7 billion. Subsequent cash contributions and transfers of assets between 1972 and 1982 totaled approximately $1.3 billion, resulting in total government contributions of approximately $3 billion.”
So even without the (apparently) semi-annual infusions of “government appropriations” the USPS received something like $3 billion in “start-up” capital. That is about as far from “no taxpayer support” as one can get! Additionally, these are economic benefits that private companies such as FedEx, UPS, and DHL do not receive and they are still kicking the Post Office’s butt in the realm where the USPS is not protected by fiat. (Have you seen the FedEx boxes placed outside the USPS recently?) Clearly the USPS benefits from government subsidy, no matter what they choose to call it. Now back to the question at hand: how might things be different with competition?”
August 12th, 2009 at 8:18 am
“We have the AARP onboard because they know this is a good deal for our seniors.” “AARP would not be endorsing a bill if it was undermining Medicare.”
Oopsie, not only do they not know what’s in the healthcare bill they are making up groups that endorse it. Makes you wonder what else they’ve made up. But the funniest thing about this is, on the AARP website and fox news is the only place you will find this story. No CNN no MSNBC unless you do a seach and then the link to the AARP website and fox come up. I guess Chris Matthews didn’t feel that “thrill going up his leg” this time. So why would the one do this? Is he so desperate to put the senior members of this country at ease that he would make up a false endorsement? And what’s the rush? He said yesterday it would take years to implement some of the changes so what’s a few more months going to hurt? In my opinion nothing, it would just give members of congress and the one time to read the bill.
August 12th, 2009 at 9:02 am
Yeah Rope.
Shannon did a piece on this over at RP
AARP statement:
“While the President was correct that AARP will not endorse a health care reform bill that would reduce Medicare benefits, indications that we have endorsed any of the major health care reform bills currently under consideration in Congress are inaccurate.”
August 12th, 2009 at 9:17 am
Another day, another lie from Obama.
No big surprise here.
August 16th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
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